JDM Clubhouse

General Category => Putter Talk, The Workshop, and Golf Accessories => Topic started by: ian-500 on July 21, 2018, 07:49:52 AM

Title: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: ian-500 on July 21, 2018, 07:49:52 AM
Should the iron head be heavier if you want to play graphite shafts, or is it just dependant on the weight of the graphite shaft?
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: wmclarenf1 on July 21, 2018, 08:07:23 AM
Should the iron head be heavier if you want to play graphite shafts, or is it just dependant on the weight of the graphite shaft?

Im thinking it depends on the weight of the shaft.  The lighter the shaft, the heavier the head needed to recover swing weight.
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: HisAirness on July 21, 2018, 08:08:31 AM
It depends on the weight of the shaft and its balance point.

Also don‘t forget to check the grip weight if the grips aren’t the same. And even if they are the same the swing weight can be thrown off by them just by the weight tolerance if you get a very light and a very heavy grip within the tolerance.
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: ian-500 on July 21, 2018, 08:42:18 AM
So as a rule of thumb, if using a shaft of 80g and less, you should use a heavier head, but over 80g then it should be OK to use a standard or lighter head.
Now if I bought a set of irons (onoff 2011) that were shafted with stock 65g shafts but I wanted to install 120g shafts, assuming the head is a heavy version, is there going to be a problem?
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: db2 on July 21, 2018, 09:07:40 AM
So as a rule of thumb, if using a shaft of 80g and less, you should use a heavier head, but over 80g then it should be OK to use a standard or lighter head.
Now if I bought a set of irons (onoff 2011) that were shafted with stock 65g shafts but I wanted to install 120g shafts, assuming the head is a heavy version, is there going to be a problem?

What are the swingweights of the 65g-shafted clubs?  What are the lengths? 

All things being equal, you will add 5.5-6 swingweight points when going from a 65g shaft to a 120g shaft.
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: Stevopagolf on July 21, 2018, 09:11:53 AM
That is a pretty drastic weight change.  I went down 20 grams, added a half inch and tip weights to get back to D2 swing weight.

As db2 said you are adding a bunch of swing weight. I personally would not want to swing a D8 club. 
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: freehb on July 21, 2018, 09:17:27 AM
Should not be a problem if builder properly measures out the naked components and adds weight where needed to achieve target swing weight.  I'd suggest setting priorities and discussing with an experienced builder prior to finalizing.    The overall finished length and grips used being the fixed variables, weight can be added either on the head or butt end to get the final build close to a target swing weight.  I've found the overall weight of the club to be important to me so have been okay with some lighter swing weights in the longer or mid irons but need at least d2 in the short irons.  Some guys feel a big difference if the swing weight is off their target number or inconsistent which is why it's a good idea to weigh out the naked components at the desired finished length.  I send my stuff to a guy who knows what he's doing...according to him, it's pretty simple math...
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: ian-500 on July 21, 2018, 09:20:02 AM
Thanks for all the info jdmcers, I knew I could count on you.
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: db2 on July 21, 2018, 09:31:36 AM
As free mentioned, total weight is a critical consideration, and more important than swingweight.  The problem with swingweight is that it doesn't take into account total weight.  You could build those irons with either 65g or 120g shafts to a D2 swingweight.  But the total weights of those sets, and thus feel, would be very different.
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: wmclarenf1 on July 21, 2018, 10:07:40 AM
So as a rule of thumb, if using a shaft of 80g and less, you should use a heavier head, but over 80g then it should be OK to use a standard or lighter head.
Now if I bought a set of irons (onoff 2011) that were shafted with stock 65g shafts but I wanted to install 120g shafts, assuming the head is a heavy version, is there going to be a problem?

Swing weight and static weight will be high.  You can use a heavy grip to counter balance for sw but static will increase again.
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: HisAirness on July 21, 2018, 01:01:20 PM
The question is did they use a heavy head or does OnOff have only one kind of head (weight) and uses tip weights for the light weight shafts? You will only know if you can weigh the head and look for tip weights while pulling the shaft.
Using a counter weight or a heavy grip to get the swing weight lighter will do the trick on the swing weight scale but as @wmclaren1 mentioned it will increase static weight. Will it work for you? Maybe, maybe not - you have to give it a try.
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: nobwas on July 22, 2018, 02:19:44 PM
I'd be interested to know how the CG changes for the light version vs the heavy version. 

http://www.miuragiken.com/product/cb-1008/

This one has 7g difference between the Carbon version and the Steel Version.

Where they place the 7g on the head will potentially alter the CG location.
I hope it's not all in the hosel.
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: db2 on July 22, 2018, 04:14:11 PM
Tom Wishon said that adding a 12 gram tip weight can move the CG 1/8" towards the heel.  When this club was used by Iron Byron or something similar, ball flight wasn't affected. 
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: wmclarenf1 on July 22, 2018, 05:01:33 PM
Tom Wishon said that adding a 12 gram tip weight can move the CG 1/8" towards the heel.  When this club was used by Iron Byron or something similar, ball flight wasn't affected.

This is good info.
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: nobwas on July 22, 2018, 05:10:48 PM
Tom Wishon said that adding a 12 gram tip weight can move the CG 1/8" towards the heel.  When this club was used by Iron Byron or something similar, ball flight wasn't affected.

This is good info.

Agreed.  On some irons,  I end up putting 1 to 5 g of tip weight to get the weight flow correct.     So I guess I don't need to worry about the irons becoming draw biased because of the added tip weight.
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: db2 on July 22, 2018, 05:42:41 PM
I tried to find the thread on GWRX in which he made that claim but I couldn't find it.  However, I did find one in which he said at 12 grams a better player (not a machine) might notice a bit of a draw bias.  He did say that a player will not notice a change in ballflight with 9 grams added to the heal.  That thread is here:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/951925-who-is-going-to-build-a-shorter-driver-based-on-wishon-article/page__st__60__p__8434929__hl__+gram%20+tip%20+weight%20+heel#entry8434929

I think it's also important to clarify that his testing was done with irons.  I wouldn't extrapolate from his results to say that 12 grams added to the heel of a driver will affect ball flight.  It could be, or it could be more or it could be less.

Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: freehb on July 27, 2018, 07:10:39 PM
As free mentioned, total weight is a critical consideration, and more important than swingweight.  The problem with swingweight is that it doesn't take into account total weight.  You could build those irons with either 65g or 120g shafts to a D2 swingweight.  But the total weights of those sets, and thus feel, would be very different.

That's a good point about feel being affected db...I hadn't focused on it before but you're right, total weight does affect feel...
Title: Re: Iron headweight for graphite shafts compared to steel of same weight.
Post by: donnieu on July 28, 2018, 08:56:46 AM
There is a limit to how much lead/tungsten powder you can put in a graphite shaft without going above the hosel.  Most builders will say a shaft may break if the lead is added above the hosel.